Poll Do you think the Trump insurrectionists have blown their wad?

[altaguetta]

"Everybody knows you won!"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1361401731238793219

 

[altaguetta]

 

[Sybarite]

I just saw this response, hence the delay in my own.

You seem to be retreating from your original position that Trump used language that directly incited an insurrection. So now claims of cheating (however silly) equate to incitement to insurrection? I repeat my first question, is that he measure you wish applied to both sides?

The punishment for Trump's wrong claims were the losses in court. That's how the system works. You want him impeached because he brought the court cases? This has just become a tribal farce.

I’m not retreating. In word and deed Trump absolutely and directly incited the insurrection.

He was not impeached for bringing court cases.

The Capitol of the world’s oldest functioning democracy got ransacked by a mob determined to violently interfere with the peaceful transition of power that is the critical, sacred tradition that democracy depends on. To some that is a really, really big deal. To others, not so much.

It never would have happened without the incitement of Donald Trump. Many people agree on this. You and I don’t, and that’s fine. I respect your opinion.

To answer your question: yes if any other politician were so clearly at fault for provoking violence, left or right, yes I would want them to be held accountable.

Again there are degrees of wrongdoing… there is no whataboutism that compares to gravity of what Trump wrought, particularly given the highest very standards which should reasonably be expected of a President above all.

For myself, the assessment of Mitch McConnell, now the most senior elected member of Trump’s own party, is very persuasive and damning:

January 6th was a disgrace. American citizens attacked their own government. They used terrorism to try to stop a specific piece of domestic business they did not like. Fellow Americans beat and bloodied our own police. They stormed the center floor. They tried to hunt down the Speaker of the House. They built a gallows and chatted about murdering the vice president. They did this because they’d been fed wild, falsehoods by the most powerful man on earth because he was angry. He lost an election. Former President Trump’s actions preceding the riot were a disgraceful dereliction of duty. The House accused the former president of quote “Incitement”. That is a specific term from the criminal law. Let me just put that aside for a moment and reiterate something I said weeks ago. There’s no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it.

The people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president and having that belief was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories, and reckless hyperbole, which the defeated president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on planet Earth. The issue is not only the president intemperate language on January 6th. It is not just his endorsement of remarks in which an associate urged quote “Trial by combat”. It was also the entire manufactured atmosphere of looming catastrophe. The increasingly wild myths about a reverse landslide election that was somehow being stolen. Some secret coup by our now president.

Now I defended the president’s right to bring any complaints to our legal system. The legal system spoke, the electoral college spoke. As I stood up and said, clearly at that time, the election was settled. It was over, but that just really opened a new chapter of even wilder and more unfounded claims.The leader of the free world cannot spend weeks thundering that shadowy forces are stealing our country and then feign surprise when people believe him and do reckless things. … sadly many politicians sometimes make overheated comments or use metaphors. We saw that. That unhinged listeners might take literally, but that was different. That’s different from what we saw. This was an intensifying crescendo of conspiracy theories orchestrated by an outgoing president who seemed determined to either overturn the voter’s decision or else torch our institutions on the way out.

The unconscionable behaviour did not end when the violence actually began. Whatever our ex president claims he thought might happen a day, whatever right reaction he’s says he meant to produce by that afternoon we know he was watching the same live television as the rest of us. A mob was assaulting the Capitol in his name, these criminals who are carrying his banners, hanging his flags and screaming their loyalty to him. It was obvious that only President Trump could end this. He was the only one who could. Former aides publicly begged him to do so. Loyal allies frantically called the administration. The president did not act swiftly. He did not do his job. He didn’t take steps so federal law could be faithfully executed and order restored. No, instead, according to public reports, he watched television happily as the chaos unfolded. He kept pressing his scheme to overturn the election. Now, even after it was clear to any reasonable observer that Vice President Pence was in serious danger. Even as the mob carrying Trump banners was beating cops and breaching perimeters their president sent a further tweet, attacking his own vice president.

Now predictably and foreseeably under the circumstances, members of the mob seemed to interpret this as a further inspiration to lawlessness and violence not surprisingly. Later, even when the president did halfheartedly began calling for peace he didn’t call right away for the riot to end. He did not tell the mob to depart until even later. And even then with police officers bleeding and broken glass covering Capitol floors, he kept repeating election lies and praising the criminals. In recent weeks, our ex-president’s associates have tried to use the 74 million Americans who voted to reelect him as a kind of human shield against criticism. Using the 74 million who voted for him as kind of a human seal shield against criticism. Anyone who decries his awful behaviour is accused of insulting millions of voters. That’s an absurd deflection. 74 million Americans did not invade the Capitol, hundreds of rioters did. 74 million Americans did not engineer the campaign of disinformation and rage that provoked it. One person did, just one.

 

[stripfan]

View attachment 144033

C'mon, Man.

 

[sy barite]

I’m not retreating. In word and deed Trump absolutely and directly incited the insurrection.

He was not impeached for bringing court cases.

The Capitol of the world’s oldest functioning democracy got ransacked by a mob determined to violently interfere with the peaceful transition of power that is the critical, sacred tradition that democracy depends on. To some that is a really, really big deal. To others, not so much.

It never would have happened without the incitement of Donald Trump. Many people agree on this. You and I don’t, and that’s fine. I respect your opinion.

To answer your question: yes if any other politician were so clearly at fault for provoking violence, left or right, yes I would want them to be held accountable.

Again there are degrees of wrongdoing… there is no whataboutism that compares to gravity of what Trump wrought, particularly given the highest very standards which should reasonably be expected of a President above all.

For myself, the assessment of Mitch McConnell, now the most senior elected member of Trump’s own party, is very persuasive and damning:

January 6th was a disgrace. American citizens attacked their own government. They used terrorism to try to stop a specific piece of domestic business they did not like. Fellow Americans beat and bloodied our own police. They stormed the center floor. They tried to hunt down the Speaker of the House. They built a gallows and chatted about murdering the vice president. They did this because they’d been fed wild, falsehoods by the most powerful man on earth because he was angry. He lost an election. Former President Trump’s actions preceding the riot were a disgraceful dereliction of duty. The House accused the former president of quote “Incitement”. That is a specific term from the criminal law. Let me just put that aside for a moment and reiterate something I said weeks ago. There’s no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it.

The people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president and having that belief was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories, and reckless hyperbole, which the defeated president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on planet Earth. The issue is not only the president intemperate language on January 6th. It is not just his endorsement of remarks in which an associate urged quote “Trial by combat”. It was also the entire manufactured atmosphere of looming catastrophe. The increasingly wild myths about a reverse landslide election that was somehow being stolen. Some secret coup by our now president.

Now I defended the president’s right to bring any complaints to our legal system. The legal system spoke, the electoral college spoke. As I stood up and said, clearly at that time, the election was settled. It was over, but that just really opened a new chapter of even wilder and more unfounded claims.The leader of the free world cannot spend weeks thundering that shadowy forces are stealing our country and then feign surprise when people believe him and do reckless things. … sadly many politicians sometimes make overheated comments or use metaphors. We saw that. That unhinged listeners might take literally, but that was different. That’s different from what we saw. This was an intensifying crescendo of conspiracy theories orchestrated by an outgoing president who seemed determined to either overturn the voter’s decision or else torch our institutions on the way out.

The unconscionable behaviour did not end when the violence actually began. Whatever our ex president claims he thought might happen a day, whatever right reaction he’s says he meant to produce by that afternoon we know he was watching the same live television as the rest of us. A mob was assaulting the Capitol in his name, these criminals who are carrying his banners, hanging his flags and screaming their loyalty to him. It was obvious that only President Trump could end this. He was the only one who could. Former aides publicly begged him to do so. Loyal allies frantically called the administration. The president did not act swiftly. He did not do his job. He didn’t take steps so federal law could be faithfully executed and order restored. No, instead, according to public reports, he watched television happily as the chaos unfolded. He kept pressing his scheme to overturn the election. Now, even after it was clear to any reasonable observer that Vice President Pence was in serious danger. Even as the mob carrying Trump banners was beating cops and breaching perimeters their president sent a further tweet, attacking his own vice president.

Now predictably and foreseeably under the circumstances, members of the mob seemed to interpret this as a further inspiration to lawlessness and violence not surprisingly. Later, even when the president did halfheartedly began calling for peace he didn’t call right away for the riot to end. He did not tell the mob to depart until even later. And even then with police officers bleeding and broken glass covering Capitol floors, he kept repeating election lies and praising the criminals. In recent weeks, our ex-president’s associates have tried to use the 74 million Americans who voted to reelect him as a kind of human shield against criticism. Using the 74 million who voted for him as kind of a human seal shield against criticism. Anyone who decries his awful behaviour is accused of insulting millions of voters. That’s an absurd deflection. 74 million Americans did not invade the Capitol, hundreds of rioters did. 74 million Americans did not engineer the campaign of disinformation and rage that provoked it. One person did, just one.

I agree that Trump's behaviour and speech have been lamentable. Awful. I get tired of repeating that.

Because I respect your opinion, I'm kind of mystified as to how you can say some of things you have. When I point out the Dems have said worse, you tell me they're excesses are equivalent to jaywalking vs Trump's behaviour equating to murder. Where do you get that? The worst Trump did (and it was bad) was to say the Democrats cheated and that people should fight for their country. Compare that to Democrats excusing outright violence for a solid year. Those two things seem comparable to me. Hardly jaywalking vs murder.

When I pushed back on your comparison, you said that questioning the election result constituted incitement to riot. This seems to me that you are condemning the whole process that was followed, including the court cases.

Finally, I agree that the Jan 6 riot would clearly not have happeneded without Trump's actions and words! That is not the same as saying he incited an insurrection. Surely you can see the difference there. Apply the same standards to both sides.

 

[qinging]

Finally, I agree that the Jan 6 riot would clearly not have happeneded without Trump's actions and words! That is not the same as saying he incited an insurrection. Surely you can see the difference there. Apply the same standards to both sides.

umm...yes it is the same...you are making things up again as if fact....Trump law.

 

[qinging]

Bidens's approval rating is currently at 62%.....I'm not sure Donald dumbo can count to 62...How can this be?

 

[snoopdoggie]

If I was one of Trump’s lawyers I would have demanded to be paid in advance

Drunk Trump's lawyers were claiming that politicians talk about "fighting" all the time, and Trump only said it as a figure of speech. I say that's all bullshit. Drunk Trump watched the riot on TV for 2 hours, enjoying it, while his own Vice President's Mike Pence life was in danger. What an idiot.

 

[Deleted member 79939]

The big lie of Trump falsely claiming the election was "stolen" was the incitement. For myself threatening the foundations of democracy and having the Capitol overrun at the direction of the President are magnitudes more serious than anything else, but we have to be honest and accept neither one of us is going to convince the other.

For now I am buoyed that more and more Republicans themselves are speaking out about how terrible Trump is for their own party and the country at large, Nikki Haley being the very latest. No doubt Haley, McConnell, Cheney and many others are also all traitors, RINOs, sheepies, whatever. It will be very interesting to see how this debacle continues to play out for the Republicans...

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Go fir a slutty squat massage

 

[Hornet]

Drunk Trump's lawyers were claiming that politicians talk about "fighting" all the time, and Trump only said it as a figure of speech. I say that's all bullshit. Drunk Trump watched the riot on TV for 2 hours, enjoying it, while his own Vice President's Mike Pence life was in danger. What an idiot.

Politicians do talk about fighting all the time. But, when they do it’s always general. They key difference is when it is specific: a specific time, a specific place, a specific reason, a specific course of action, etc.

I don’t think the Dem’s should have impeached on incitement as you’d never get the Republicans on board as they would be looking for that smoking gun where Trump explicitly said “go March and raid the Capitol and hang Pelosi and Pence”. What they should have Impeached was on a dereliction of duty and failure to uphold the oath of office to protect the nation. Specifically, when the Capitol was under attack, and Pence was being evacuated, Politicions were calling on Trump to act, speak up and tell them to stand down and call the National Guard but he didn’t act in a timely manner. Forget the argument that he incited it. Focus on the argument that he froze and was weak when it happened. The Commander in Chief cannot be weak in the face of an attack. There would be witnesses and phone records of people calling Trump for help to this. Put Republicans under oath about this and they couldn’t lie. Call on the Commander of the National guard on who ordered him into DC and who he talked to. Call on Trump’s staff that was begging him to act. Call on the Secret Service to confirm that they procedures meant there was no way Trump didn’t know of the attack or Pence was being evacuated.

Don’t go after Trump for attacking Democracy but for being impotent and weak to defend it when it was attacked. He should never be allowed to hold office again because he is weak and America’s enemies have seen this and will exploit this if he ever holds office again.

 

[qinging]

Politicians do talk about fighting all the time. But, when they do it’s always general. They key difference is when it is specific: a specific time, a specific place, a specific reason, a specific course of action, etc.

I don’t think the Dem’s should have impeached on incitement as you’d never get the Republicans on board as they would be looking for that smoking gun where Trump explicitly said “go March and raid the Capitol and hang Pelosi and Pence”. What they should have Impeached was on a dereliction of duty and failure to uphold the oath of office to protect the nation. Specifically, when the Capitol was under attack, and Pence was being evacuated, Politicions were calling on Trump to act, speak up and tell them to stand down and call the National Guard but he didn’t act in a timely manner. Forget the argument that he incited it. Focus on the argument that he froze and was weak when it happened. The Commander in Chief cannot be weak in the face of an attack. There would be witnesses and phone records of people calling Trump for help to this. Put Republicans under oath about this and they couldn’t lie. Call on the Commander of the National guard on who ordered him into DC and who he talked to. Call on Trump’s staff that was begging him to act. Call on the Secret Service to confirm that they procedures meant there was no way Trump didn’t know of the attack or Pence was being evacuated.

Don’t go after Trump for attacking Democracy but for being impotent and weak to defend it when it was attacked. He should never be allowed to hold office again because he is weak and America’s enemies have seen this and will exploit this if he ever holds office again.

Politicians do talk about fighting all the time. But, when they do it’s always general. They key difference is when it is specific: a specific time, a specific place, a specific reason, a specific course of action, etc.

I don’t think the Dem’s should have impeached on incitement as you’d never get the Republicans on board as they would be looking for that smoking gun where Trump explicitly said “go March and raid the Capitol and hang Pelosi and Pence”. What they should have Impeached was on a dereliction of duty and failure to uphold the oath of office to protect the nation. Specifically, when the Capitol was under attack, and Pence was being evacuated, Politicions were calling on Trump to act, speak up and tell them to stand down and call the National Guard but he didn’t act in a timely manner. Forget the argument that he incited it. Focus on the argument that he froze and was weak when it happened. The Commander in Chief cannot be weak in the face of an attack. There would be witnesses and phone records of people calling Trump for help to this. Put Republicans under oath about this and they couldn’t lie. Call on the Commander of the National guard on who ordered him into DC and who he talked to. Call on Trump’s staff that was begging him to act. Call on the Secret Service to confirm that they procedures meant there was no way Trump didn’t know of the attack or Pence was being evacuated.

Don’t go after Trump for attacking Democracy but for being impotent and weak to defend it when it was attacked. He should never be allowed to hold office again because he is weak and America’s enemies have seen this and will exploit this if he ever holds office again.

The incitement of insurrection charges were correct and proven...only the USA 2 party system where popular vote doesn't win elections...where states with 800 thousand population get the same number of votes in the Senate as states with 25 million... and 57-43 is a loss in an impeachment trial .The evidence was all over TV and videoed starting months ago right up to Jan. 6. There was no way a dereliction of duty charge was going to be proven nor provide the mass amount of ready evidence the actual and obvious charges could.... not to mention 43 GOP senators who were going to say not guilty no matter what the charges.

 

[sy barite]

Politicians do talk about fighting all the time. But, when they do it’s always general. They key difference is when it is specific: a specific time, a specific place, a specific reason, a specific course of action, etc.

I don’t think the Dem’s should have impeached on incitement as you’d never get the Republicans on board as they would be looking for that smoking gun where Trump explicitly said “go March and raid the Capitol and hang Pelosi and Pence”. What they should have Impeached was on a dereliction of duty and failure to uphold the oath of office to protect the nation. Specifically, when the Capitol was under attack, and Pence was being evacuated, Politicions were calling on Trump to act, speak up and tell them to stand down and call the National Guard but he didn’t act in a timely manner. Forget the argument that he incited it. Focus on the argument that he froze and was weak when it happened. The Commander in Chief cannot be weak in the face of an attack. There would be witnesses and phone records of people calling Trump for help to this. Put Republicans under oath about this and they couldn’t lie. Call on the Commander of the National guard on who ordered him into DC and who he talked to. Call on Trump’s staff that was begging him to act. Call on the Secret Service to confirm that they procedures meant there was no way Trump didn’t know of the attack or Pence was being evacuated.

Don’t go after Trump for attacking Democracy but for being impotent and weak to defend it when it was attacked. He should never be allowed to hold office again because he is weak and America’s enemies have seen this and will exploit this if he ever holds office again.

This is a more reasonable argument. I am just not sure it's accurate.

According to the timelines I've seen, Trump concluded his speech at 1:00 p.m. This is the speech where he told people to "fight like hell", or words to that effect. By 1:30 p.m., trouble had started at the Capitol. By 2:30 p.m. he was tweeting out that people should cooperate with Capitol police and stay peaceful. At 3:15 p.m. he asked everyone to remain peaceful and be the party of law and order.

If you want to say this was dereliction of duty, I'd certainly take the whole picture into account and consider it...but if that's the standard, why are we not holding Dems to it as well?

 

[sy barite]

The incitement of insurrection charges were correct and proven...only the USA 2 party system where popular vote doesn't win elections...where states with 800 thousand population get the same number of votes in the Senate as states with 25 million... and 57-43 is a loss in an impeachment trial .The evidence was all over TV and videoed starting months ago right up to Jan. 6. There was no way a dereliction of duty charge was going to be proven nor provide the mass amount of ready evidence the actual and obvious charges could.... not to mention 43 GOP senators who were going to say not guilty no matter what the charges.

Umm...the popular vote doesn't necessarily win elections here either. And the fact that all states get the same number of senators is actually an example of the genius of the founding fathers. That formula has ensured unity through times even tougher than what we see today. Strictly speaking, the U.S. does not have a two party system.

 

[Hornet]

Reports do not show Trump the National guard but other leaders did instead. Report have Pence calling out the guard and the Governor and Mayor working with Pelosi and Schumer (not Trump).

Timeline of National Guard Deployment to Capitol - FactCheck.org

On the day of the Capitol riot on Jan. 6, the first National Guard members arrived to assist at about 5:40 p.m. Here, we present a timeline about the efforts to deploy those troops.

www.factcheck.org

Trump could have tweeted in all caps “STOP THIS ATTACK OU OUR GOVERNMENT NOW!” Or “THESE INSURRECTIONISTS WILL PAY!” Immediately (within a minute or Two) then go on TV. If he wasn’t coordinating with the National Guard and not making immediate public statements what was he doing as is demanded in the role of Commander in Chief to stop this?

There are reports of a McCarthy to Trump Jan 6th phone call asking for help and Trump’s response was to fight harder to overturn the results with others confirming that call happened, Trump’s staff urging him to react, etc. all could have been used. But, with 14days left in his presidency the timeline was very tight to compile all that.

 

[sy barite]

Reports do not show Trump the National guard but other leaders did instead. Report have Pence calling out the guard and the Governor and Mayor working with Pelosi and Schumer (not Trump).

Timeline of National Guard Deployment to Capitol - FactCheck.org

On the day of the Capitol riot on Jan. 6, the first National Guard members arrived to assist at about 5:40 p.m. Here, we present a timeline about the efforts to deploy those troops.

www.factcheck.org

Trump could have tweeted in all caps “STOP THIS ATTACK OU OUR GOVERNMENT NOW!” Or “THESE INSURRECTIONISTS WILL PAY!” Immediately (within a minute or Two) then go on TV. If he wasn’t coordinating with the National Guard and not making immediate public statements what was he doing as is demanded in the role of Commander in Chief to stop this?

There are reports of a McCarthy to Trump Jan 6th phone call asking for help and Trump’s response was to fight harder to overturn the results with others confirming that call happened, Trump’s staff urging him to react, etc. all could have been used. But, with 14days left in his presidency the timeline was very tight to compile all that.

I'd be prepared to accept that argument, and see Trump blamed for the right thing. But what about a year of allowing rioting in the streets of Portland, Seattle and other cities where people were killed, businesses burned etc. No outrage for that?

 

[Hornet]

The incitement of insurrection charges were correct and proven...only the USA 2 party system where popular vote doesn't win elections...where states with 800 thousand population get the same number of votes in the Senate as states with 25 million... and 57-43 is a loss in an impeachment trial .The evidence was all over TV and videoed starting months ago right up to Jan. 6. There was no way a dereliction of duty charge was going to be proven nor provide the mass amount of ready evidence the actual and obvious charges could.... not to mention 43 GOP senators who were going to say not guilty no matter what the charges.

I think he did incite the riot but I’m saying it wasn’t the right way to go after Trump.

Al Capone had people murdered but Elliot Ness got Capone on Tax Evasion. It’s just “what is the best way to get him” argument and which way has the higher percentage success probability.

 

[qinging]

Umm...the popular vote doesn't necessarily win elections here either. And the fact that all states get the same number of senators is actually an example of the genius of the founding fathers. That formula has ensured unity through times even tougher than what we see today. Strictly speaking, the U.S. does not have a two party system.

You are making up your own story again....I wrote 2 party system which the USA has and the majority loses even when having 3 million more votes as in 2016...Canada has more than 2 parties.......there is is nothing genius about the electoral college in 21st century and Americans know it.

 

[Hornet]

I'd be prepared to accept that argument, and see Trump blamed for the right thing. But what about a year of allowing rioting in the streets of Portland, Seattle and other cities where people were killed, businesses burned etc. No outrage for that?

I think we just stick to Jan 6th or we just get into a never ending back and forth and I bring up: “Very fine people on both sides” in Charlottesville, kids in cages, and on and on

 

[qinging]

I think he did incite the riot but I’m saying it wasn’t the right way to go after Trump.

Al Capone had people murdered but Elliot Ness got Capone on Tax Evasion. It’s just “what is the best way to get him” argument and which way has the higher percentage success probability.

The case was solid ...the evidence all on video...dereliction of duty alone would have taken forever and is in fact defined by inciting insurrection. Keep in mind the American public and political system has a limited attention span....again the die was cast ...43 not guilty locked in before it began.

 

[sy barite]

You are making up your own story again....I wrote 2 party system which the USA has and the majority loses even when having 3 million more votes as in 2016...Canada has more than 2 parties.......there is is nothing genius about the electoral college in 21st century and Americans know it.

No, the United State is a Republic, and nothing in its constitution mandates a two party system. Practically speaking, American governments have ever only been formed by one of the two parties, but independents have played a role.

As for the rest of your comment, it seems based on what you glean from watching what passes for news today as opposed to what you should remember from any basic American history lesson. I've spent enough time pretending you want to have a good faith discussion and I'll leave you to wallow in your ignorance.